From walter at frii.com Mon Sep 2 13:38:27 2002 From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] meeting? In-Reply-To: <15726.54361.573000.253787@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Hi, I'd be really interested in hearing what Rob has to say about Extreme Programming. (I think he has some reasonable credentials in the area, but it's not up to me to "out" him -- oops, I just did.) Based on the volume/nature of responses, I think maybe a late afternoon meeting might be best -- which means Softpro might be out. If people were willing, we could meet out here at the "IEEE Boulder Lab" up in Gunbarrel. Plenty of parking, standard Ethernet (no 802.11, sorry). If there was interest, I could fire up the grill and cook hamburgers. As for a date, hmmm. I'm out of town the end of this week, but anytime next week except Thursday would be fine. The week after that, any day but Thursday is okay. So that's my first-approximation solution. Comments? Walter From nagler at bivio.biz Mon Sep 2 14:50:37 2002 From: nagler at bivio.biz (Rob Nagler) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] meeting? In-Reply-To: References: <15726.54361.573000.253787@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <15731.49421.540000.155866@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Walter Pienciak writes: > I'd be really interested in hearing what Rob has to say about > Extreme Programming. (I think he has some reasonable credentials > in the area, but it's not up to me to "out" him -- oops, I just > did.) I can keep it short so others can talk about other stuff. > As for a date, hmmm. I'm out of town the end of this week, but > anytime next week except Thursday would be fine. The week after > that, any day but Thursday is okay. I like the Wed/Fri idea. Fri might be better day for me. Rob From chip at rmpg.org Mon Sep 2 22:32:37 2002 From: chip at rmpg.org (Chip Atkinson) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] meeting? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ok, I've lurked and not attended more than one meeting, so my sway is probably equally low. Nevertheless, a meeting in Gunbarrel would be great for me. Next Monday, Tuesday, or Thursday would be my preferences. Here's an idea for a session that just popped into my head. Constructive heckling. Somebody (me in particular) talks about a project they are working on. The audience members (politely) offer criticism, suggestions, and perhaps praise. What made me think of this was that I'm working on a cgi-bin project but I'm not sure I'm going about the whole thing the correct way at all. I would love to hear from others how they would approach the problem. Chip On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, Walter Pienciak wrote: > Hi, > > I'd be really interested in hearing what Rob has to say about > Extreme Programming. (I think he has some reasonable credentials > in the area, but it's not up to me to "out" him -- oops, I just > did.) > > Based on the volume/nature of responses, I think maybe a late > afternoon meeting might be best -- which means Softpro might > be out. If people were willing, we could meet out here at the > "IEEE Boulder Lab" up in Gunbarrel. Plenty of parking, standard > Ethernet (no 802.11, sorry). If there was interest, I could > fire up the grill and cook hamburgers. > > As for a date, hmmm. I'm out of town the end of this week, but > anytime next week except Thursday would be fine. The week after > that, any day but Thursday is okay. > > So that's my first-approximation solution. Comments? > > Walter > From davek at saturn5.com Tue Sep 3 00:34:20 2002 From: davek at saturn5.com (David Nicholas Kayal) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] meeting? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: i'm in san fran. i would find it hard to get to gunbarrel. what is the skinny on your project. david On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, Chip Atkinson wrote: > Ok, I've lurked and not attended more than one meeting, so my sway is > probably equally low. Nevertheless, a meeting in Gunbarrel would be great > for me. Next Monday, Tuesday, or Thursday would be my preferences. > > Here's an idea for a session that just popped into my head. Constructive > heckling. Somebody (me in particular) talks about a project they are > working on. The audience members (politely) offer criticism, suggestions, > and perhaps praise. > > What made me think of this was that I'm working on a cgi-bin project but > I'm not sure I'm going about the whole thing the correct way at all. I > would love to hear from others how they would approach the problem. > > Chip > > On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, Walter Pienciak wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I'd be really interested in hearing what Rob has to say about > > Extreme Programming. (I think he has some reasonable credentials > > in the area, but it's not up to me to "out" him -- oops, I just > > did.) > > > > Based on the volume/nature of responses, I think maybe a late > > afternoon meeting might be best -- which means Softpro might > > be out. If people were willing, we could meet out here at the > > "IEEE Boulder Lab" up in Gunbarrel. Plenty of parking, standard > > Ethernet (no 802.11, sorry). If there was interest, I could > > fire up the grill and cook hamburgers. > > > > As for a date, hmmm. I'm out of town the end of this week, but > > anytime next week except Thursday would be fine. The week after > > that, any day but Thursday is okay. > > > > So that's my first-approximation solution. Comments? > > > > Walter > > > > From donald.g.lewis at lmco.com Tue Sep 3 09:22:44 2002 From: donald.g.lewis at lmco.com (Lewis, Donald G) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] meeting? Message-ID: <6D5BFD6B8FB1D31192F90008C74B68170C729BC8@emss02m03.ems.lmco.com> First approximation is OK with me - Don Lewis | -----Original Message----- | From: Walter Pienciak [mailto:walter@frii.com] | Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 12:38 PM | To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org | Subject: Re: [boulder.pm] meeting? | | | Hi, | | I'd be really interested in hearing what Rob has to say about | Extreme Programming. (I think he has some reasonable credentials | in the area, but it's not up to me to "out" him -- oops, I just | did.) | | Based on the volume/nature of responses, I think maybe a late | afternoon meeting might be best -- which means Softpro might | be out. If people were willing, we could meet out here at the | "IEEE Boulder Lab" up in Gunbarrel. Plenty of parking, standard | Ethernet (no 802.11, sorry). If there was interest, I could | fire up the grill and cook hamburgers. | | As for a date, hmmm. I'm out of town the end of this week, but | anytime next week except Thursday would be fine. The week after | that, any day but Thursday is okay. | | So that's my first-approximation solution. Comments? | | Walter | From chip at rmpg.org Tue Sep 3 11:37:39 2002 From: chip at rmpg.org (Chip Atkinson) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] meeting? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ok, personally I'd rather have the meeting at your place, but... :-) It's not something sophisticated, but it's what we have. We have to use cgi-bin scripts rather than php. The two main reasons for this are that it's the way it's been done in the past and that our version of Oracle (7.x) doesn't work with php. Actually php seems to have a bug in it that prevents reliable data retrieval from Oracle. Also, we weren't able to integrate perldb either due to some problems building. I think our oracle installation is a bit weird too. Anyway, what I decided to do was to make a kind of php functional emulator. It goes through and grabs the code between <% and %> and evals it. It works halfway decently but it's no php. I'll write more when I can. Chip On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, David Nicholas Kayal wrote: > i'm in san fran. i would find it hard to get to gunbarrel. what is the > skinny on your project. > > david > > On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, Chip Atkinson wrote: > > > Ok, I've lurked and not attended more than one meeting, so my sway is > > probably equally low. Nevertheless, a meeting in Gunbarrel would be great > > for me. Next Monday, Tuesday, or Thursday would be my preferences. > > > > Here's an idea for a session that just popped into my head. Constructive > > heckling. Somebody (me in particular) talks about a project they are > > working on. The audience members (politely) offer criticism, suggestions, > > and perhaps praise. > > > > What made me think of this was that I'm working on a cgi-bin project but > > I'm not sure I'm going about the whole thing the correct way at all. I > > would love to hear from others how they would approach the problem. > > > > Chip > > > > On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, Walter Pienciak wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I'd be really interested in hearing what Rob has to say about > > > Extreme Programming. (I think he has some reasonable credentials > > > in the area, but it's not up to me to "out" him -- oops, I just > > > did.) > > > > > > Based on the volume/nature of responses, I think maybe a late > > > afternoon meeting might be best -- which means Softpro might > > > be out. If people were willing, we could meet out here at the > > > "IEEE Boulder Lab" up in Gunbarrel. Plenty of parking, standard > > > Ethernet (no 802.11, sorry). If there was interest, I could > > > fire up the grill and cook hamburgers. > > > > > > As for a date, hmmm. I'm out of town the end of this week, but > > > anytime next week except Thursday would be fine. The week after > > > that, any day but Thursday is okay. > > > > > > So that's my first-approximation solution. Comments? > > > > > > Walter > > > > > > > > From nagler at bivio.biz Tue Sep 3 12:53:29 2002 From: nagler at bivio.biz (Rob Nagler) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] meeting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15732.63257.452000.621113@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Chip Atkinson writes: > It's not something sophisticated, but it's what we have. We have to use > cgi-bin scripts rather than php. How about considering mod_perl? It's faster and more reliable than cgi imo. > The two main reasons for this are that > it's the way it's been done in the past and that our version of Oracle > (7.x) doesn't work with php. Actually php seems to have a bug in it that > prevents reliable data retrieval from Oracle. Also, we weren't able to > integrate perldb either due to some problems building. I think our oracle > installation is a bit weird too. We have seen some instability with the later versions of the Perl DBD::Oracle driver, too. Nothing we've bothered to track down right now, i.e. consider this a weak rumor. Older DBD is rock solid, however. Oracle itself does corrupt the DB on occassion, but only the indexes thus far. Rob From walter at frii.com Tue Sep 3 13:35:11 2002 From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] meeting? In-Reply-To: <15732.63257.452000.621113@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Rob Nagler wrote: > Chip Atkinson writes: > > It's not something sophisticated, but it's what we have. We have to use > > cgi-bin scripts rather than php. > > How about considering mod_perl? It's faster and more reliable than > cgi imo. I'm a mod_perl user myself, but use CGI also. mod_perl is faster than CGI, certainly. But more reliable? I'm not sure what you're referring to. What is unreliable about the CGI mechanism? It's limited, sure, but it works. Care to expand on your comment? I'm tempted to assert the opposite: that for many applications, the CGI approach is simpler and less prone to gotchas -- hence more robust/reliable. Walter From nagler at bivio.biz Tue Sep 3 14:06:36 2002 From: nagler at bivio.biz (Rob Nagler) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] meeting? In-Reply-To: References: <15732.63257.452000.621113@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <15733.2108.579000.709988@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Walter Pienciak writes: > What is unreliable about the CGI mechanism? mod_perl and our infrastructure caches all files. If you are installing a new release, you just install it and restart the server. No worries about "woops, file disappeared in new release, but still serving old files". Systems are more if all the code is loaded in memory once. When you have constant reloads, you can have transient errors for a variety of reasons, e.g. not enough memory or processes. It is easier to design for peak load and be sure the system operates well under peak load. If you aren't building complex apps (> 50 pages) or high transaction rates (> 1/sec), it probably doesn't matter. CGI is fine as is anything else. Rob From chip at rmpg.org Tue Sep 3 14:40:59 2002 From: chip at rmpg.org (Chip Atkinson) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] meeting? In-Reply-To: <15732.63257.452000.621113@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Rob Nagler wrote: > Chip Atkinson writes: > > It's not something sophisticated, but it's what we have. We have to use > > cgi-bin scripts rather than php. > > How about considering mod_perl? It's faster and more reliable than > cgi imo. I remember looking at mod_perl, but don't remember why not. I think it was one of those things where I was totally fed up with some things and didn't want to deal with it. > > > The two main reasons for this are that > > it's the way it's been done in the past and that our version of Oracle > > (7.x) doesn't work with php. Actually php seems to have a bug in it that > > prevents reliable data retrieval from Oracle. Also, we weren't able to > > integrate perldb either due to some problems building. I think our oracle > > installation is a bit weird too. > > We have seen some instability with the later versions of the Perl > DBD::Oracle driver, too. Nothing we've bothered to track down right > now, i.e. consider this a weak rumor. Older DBD is rock solid, > however. Oracle itself does corrupt the DB on occassion, but only the > indexes thus far. I wish I had been able to get that far. I was having trouble building the module at all. My biggest concern/worry is whether or not I'm approaching the problem in the best way. I decided to try the PHP approach with a reentrant script that loops through and prints out different text based on the type of page I was and wanted to display. Chi From myke at komar.org Tue Sep 3 16:56:16 2002 From: myke at komar.org (Myke Komarnitsky) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] meeting? In-Reply-To: <15733.2108.579000.709988@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <15732.63257.452000.621113@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020903155313.02c66160@boulder.aescon.com> At 01:06 PM 9/3/2002 -0600, you wrote: >mod_perl and our infrastructure caches all files. If you are >installing a new release, you just install it and restart the server. >No worries about "woops, file disappeared in new release, but still >serving old files". Getting back to the meeting talk, I would love (and definitely come to) a presentation on mod_perl.... specifically: 1) when: when does a site really NEED to be done in mod_perl? I've heard anecdotal speed increases, but more the brass tacks. 2) how: code snippets, setting up persistent db connections, perhaps sample 'old' perl code and what it takes to migrate to mod_perl I've tried to dip my foot in this pool a number of times and have been thrwarted. Plus, I have a couple of projects that might be extremely relevant to this soon. My $.02, Myke Michael Komarnitsky Komar Consulting Group 303.818.3718 http://www.komar.biz http://climbingboulder.com http://myke.komar.org - From walter at frii.com Tue Sep 3 19:03:36 2002 From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] meeting? In-Reply-To: <15733.2108.579000.709988@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Rob Nagler wrote: > Walter Pienciak writes: > > What is unreliable about the CGI mechanism? > > mod_perl and our infrastructure caches all files. You speak of bOP when you say 'our infrastructure'? > If you are installing a new release, you just install it and > restart the server. No worries about "woops, file disappeared > in new release, but still serving old files". I'm not following. It seems clear you have a good example in mind, but whatever it is, I've never run across the problem, I think. > Systems are more if all the code is loaded in memory once. When you > have constant reloads, you can have transient errors for a variety of > reasons, e.g. not enough memory or processes. It is easier to design > for peak load and be sure the system operates well under peak load. > > If you aren't building complex apps (> 50 pages) or high transaction > rates (> 1/sec), it probably doesn't matter. CGI is fine as is > anything else. I guess I'm just feeling argumentative (in a good-natured way) today, but doesn't mod_perl bring its own set of headaches to the table -- memory leaks for example -- that for simpler solutions point back to CGI as preferable? There's no doubt that for high-performance systems mod_perl is clearly preferable -- in-memory and ready to go, persistent database connections, etc. -- but my preference for low-end low-usage programs is still CGI. (I prefer a paper calendar to a PDA, too, so . . .) FWIW (for all those following along), all my servers are mod_perl enabled and I'm a huge fan of mod_perl handlers -- they are really easy to write and work with. And you can do things using the API that you just can't do in CGI. I just prefer CGI for the simple stuff. Disk I/O and CPUs nowadays make the startup cost of infrequently requested apps insignificant to the user experience when compared with network latency (in my opinion, and the database-backend issue something separate entirely). Ah, gotta go. My wife just got home, and it's time to go out to dinner (20th anniversary). Woohoo! Walter the CGI Luddite From nagler at bivio.biz Tue Sep 3 22:12:31 2002 From: nagler at bivio.biz (Rob Nagler) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: mod_perl (was Re: [boulder.pm] meeting?) In-Reply-To: References: <15732.63257.452000.621113@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <15733.31263.50000.167919@gargle.gargle.HOWL> [Consilidated threads and concatenated messages. Don't want to scare anybody off boulder-pm, because of the volume. --Rob :-] Chip Atkinson writes: > I remember looking at mod_perl, but don't remember why not. I think it > was one of those things where I was totally fed up with some things and > didn't want to deal with it. :) I actually don't deal much with mod_perl any more, because our infrastructure hides it completely. > I wish I had been able to get that far. I was having trouble building the > module at all. My biggest concern/worry is whether or not I'm approaching > the problem in the best way. I decided to try the PHP approach with a > reentrant script that loops through and prints out different text based on > the type of page I was and wanted to display. This works fine. If the problem is simple, PHP is great. I do have some opinions about how to build Web applications. For the curious: http://www.bivio.biz/hm/why-bOP Myke Komarnitsky writes: > Getting back to the meeting talk, I would love (and definitely come to) a > presentation on mod_perl.... specifically: I've got quite a bit of experience using mod_perl. It's really easy, BUT it doesn't give you enough imiho. You have to build or "buy" something on top of it. > 1) when: when does a site really NEED to be done in mod_perl? Always. :-) Seriously, I have build applications using Java, CGI (on Tandem, NT, and Unix) and Perl. I wouldn't do it in anything else but Perl (well maybe Lisp if there was a CLAN. ;-). > I've heard anecdotal speed increases, but more the brass tacks. For speed, we find the database is the limiting factor. We build all our sites now in Perl. All are dynamically rendered. This page: http://www.bivio.com/club_index/accounting/investments is produced from the base transactions (buys, splits, spinoffs, sells) in an Oracle database (450mhz box with RAID and 10K disks) using 750mhz middle tier (mod_perl) and front ends (mod_proxy). At least 50% of the time is spent waiting for Oracle. > 2) how: code snippets, setting up persistent db connections, perhaps sample > 'old' perl code and what it takes to migrate to mod_perl You can transfer CGI to mod_perl very easily. The Apache::Registry and a few other modules make it transparent. While this is ok, it's not why I would go to mod_perl. The real advantage is that it allows you to build an application framework like bOP or bricolage or AxKit or yada yada. You can view the source of our Pet Shop application online: http://petshop.bivio.biz You can also download it: http://www.bivio.biz/hm/download-bOP > I've tried to dip my foot in this pool a number of times and have been > thrwarted. Plus, I have a couple of projects that might be extremely > relevant to this soon. It is an investment, but I believe thinking about web sites as "applications" makes a world of difference. It's frustrating going back to templating systems like Java/JSP (we're doing one now and it is twice or three times as slow to build the application than with bOP). Walter Pienciak writes: > You speak of bOP when you say 'our infrastructure'? Yassuh. > > If you are installing a new release, you just install it and > > restart the server. No worries about "woops, file disappeared > > in new release, but still serving old files". > > I'm not following. It seems clear you have a good example in mind, > but whatever it is, I've never run across the problem, I think. You have /cgi-bin/mainpage which refers to /cgi-bin/delete-all and /cgi-bin/delete. You decide to coalesce the two "delete" implementations, so it is now /cgi-bin/delete?all. Great, but at the same time you remove /cgi-bin/delete-all from your source repository, because it is no longer needed. Unfortunately, when you install your new release, somebody still has the old rendering of /cgi-bin/mainpage and they click on the "delete all" link which goes to /cgi-bin/delete-all which is no longer there. Yes, you can work around us, but in bOP and other frameworks which separate the controller from the business logic, you setup aliases (redirects) to deal with this problem. In CGI, where there is no clear control flow, it's difficult to have the overview esp. when there are 50 entry points (delete, delete-all, upload, rename, ...) > I guess I'm just feeling argumentative (in a good-natured way) > today, This isn't like you, Walter. Perhaps we need to play some disc golf to get out your aggressions. > but doesn't mod_perl bring its own set of headaches to the table > -- memory leaks for example -- that for simpler solutions point back > to CGI as preferable? We've had some slow leaks, but with the right infrastructure, not a problem. Everynight we restart the slaves when we chomp the logs for the new day. > There's no doubt that for high-performance > systems mod_perl is clearly preferable -- in-memory and ready to go, > persistent database connections, etc. -- but my preference for low-end > low-usage programs is still CGI. (I prefer a paper calendar to a > PDA, too, so . . .) Right. The PDA is a good example. I've been using one for 12 years. I just got a Palm. My old keyboard-based solution was just fine, but now that I have the Palm, I'm much happier. Old hiking boots are great until you try the latest models (just did this, too). It takes a while to get used to anything before you see its inherent advantages (and weaknesses). > FWIW (for all those following along), all my servers are mod_perl enabled > and I'm a huge fan of mod_perl handlers -- they are really easy to > write and work with. And you can do things using the API that you just > can't do in CGI. I just prefer CGI for the simple stuff. Disk I/O and > CPUs nowadays make the startup cost of infrequently requested apps > insignificant to the user experience when compared with network > latency (in my opinion, and the database-backend issue something separate > entirely). We run "reqtrack" (reqng) which is a 5000 CGI application. It's only used for support requests (~10/day, max 50). It works fine and we have customized it to our needs. No plans to change. > Ah, gotta go. My wife just got home, and it's time to go out to > dinner (20th anniversary). Woohoo! Congrats! I hope you bought her a string of Perls (hardy har har). Rob From donald.g.lewis at lmco.com Wed Sep 4 10:36:35 2002 From: donald.g.lewis at lmco.com (Lewis, Donald G) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] meeting? Message-ID: <6D5BFD6B8FB1D31192F90008C74B68170C729BCC@emss02m03.ems.lmco.com> Walter, congratulations on 20. My first went to 19 and I am at 19 again. Things are going great and I am not going to mess this time up. | ... persistent database connections, etc. -- but my preference | for low-end | low-usage programs is still CGI. (I prefer a paper calendar to a | PDA, too, so . . .) About paper PDA's: Oh, I mean paper vs. PDA's, I have struggled with paper scheduling for a long time but could never get myself to carry around the book when I needed it. Now that I have a PDA (a Palm M505, I have an even greater aversion to pocket-less shirts) it is always available. I essentially use it for addresses, schedule (non-work) and an occasional note, do not seem to have time for the games. OK, it seems we have a tacit decision for Gunbarrel (I work at Lockheed on Spine) in the next two weeks. Set a date and let us chew on it. - Don Lewis "Promise yourself: To be so strong that nothing can disturb your peace of mind." From walter at frii.com Wed Sep 4 16:57:38 2002 From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] meeting? In-Reply-To: <6D5BFD6B8FB1D31192F90008C74B68170C729BCC@emss02m03.ems.lmco.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Sep 2002, Lewis, Donald G wrote: > OK, it seems we have a tacit decision for Gunbarrel (I work at Lockheed on > Spine) in the next two weeks. Set a date and let us chew on it. Looking through the e-mails, Friday definitely seems better. How about next Friday, 13 September, 4 PM, with burgers and beverages? Rob will talk about extreme programming, and there will be opportunity for anyone else to hold forth for 1+ minute(s) on whatever topic they want. There will be network connectivity, there will not be wireless (not from me, anyway), and there are a few books and rubber balls from SAMS Publishing to fight over. The address will be IEEE Boulder Laboratory (aka my house) 4615 Tally Ho Trail Boulder, CO 80301 Parking on the street is fine. If you feel picnicky, we have balls and bats, lacrosse sticks, a bouldering wall, badminton net, frisbees . . . I'm outta here in a few minutes for Ohio, so if that doesn't work, just figure out a non-Thursday alternate or a later time that day. Walter From KSmith at netLibrary.com Wed Sep 4 17:05:16 2002 From: KSmith at netLibrary.com (Keanan Smith) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] meeting? Message-ID: <8B499C5ACCA965439B3F6712E7ADABBD5BCFC3@mailman.netlibrary.com> Hehe, you really want to meet on Friday the 13th? -----Original Message----- From: Walter Pienciak [mailto:walter@frii.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 3:58 PM To: 'boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' Subject: RE: [boulder.pm] meeting? On Wed, 4 Sep 2002, Lewis, Donald G wrote: > OK, it seems we have a tacit decision for Gunbarrel (I work at Lockheed on > Spine) in the next two weeks. Set a date and let us chew on it. Looking through the e-mails, Friday definitely seems better. How about next Friday, 13 September, 4 PM, with burgers and beverages? Rob will talk about extreme programming, and there will be opportunity for anyone else to hold forth for 1+ minute(s) on whatever topic they want. There will be network connectivity, there will not be wireless (not from me, anyway), and there are a few books and rubber balls from SAMS Publishing to fight over. The address will be IEEE Boulder Laboratory (aka my house) 4615 Tally Ho Trail Boulder, CO 80301 Parking on the street is fine. If you feel picnicky, we have balls and bats, lacrosse sticks, a bouldering wall, badminton net, frisbees . . . I'm outta here in a few minutes for Ohio, so if that doesn't work, just figure out a non-Thursday alternate or a later time that day. Walter From donald.g.lewis at lmco.com Wed Sep 4 18:40:17 2002 From: donald.g.lewis at lmco.com (Lewis, Donald G) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] meeting? Message-ID: <6D5BFD6B8FB1D31192F90008C74B68170C729BD4@emss02m03.ems.lmco.com> Good with me - Don Lewis | -----Original Message----- | From: Walter Pienciak [mailto:walter@frii.com] | Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 3:58 PM | To: 'boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' | Subject: RE: [boulder.pm] meeting? | | | On Wed, 4 Sep 2002, Lewis, Donald G wrote: | | > OK, it seems we have a tacit decision for Gunbarrel (I | work at Lockheed on | > Spine) in the next two weeks. Set a date and let us chew on it. | | Looking through the e-mails, Friday definitely seems | better. How about | next Friday, 13 September, 4 PM, with burgers and | beverages? Rob will talk | about extreme programming, and there will be opportunity | for anyone else | to hold forth for 1+ minute(s) on whatever topic they want. | There will be | network connectivity, there will not be wireless (not from | me, anyway), | and there are a few books and rubber balls from SAMS | Publishing to fight | over. The address will be | | IEEE Boulder Laboratory (aka my house) | 4615 Tally Ho Trail | Boulder, CO 80301 | | Parking on the street is fine. If you feel picnicky, we have balls | and bats, lacrosse sticks, a bouldering wall, badminton | net, frisbees . . . | | I'm outta here in a few minutes for Ohio, so if that doesn't work, | just figure out a non-Thursday alternate or a later time that day. | | Walter | From walter at frii.com Wed Sep 11 08:39:59 2002 From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] next meeting Message-ID: Right, then. Boulder.pm has a meeting this Friday at 4 PM. There will be a presentation on extreme programming by Rob Nagler. Some SAMS Publishing stuff is available for samples/review. Food (burgers and a few munchies) will be available. IEEE Boulder Laboratory (aka my house) 4615 Tally Ho Trail Boulder, CO 80301 Diagonal up to Jay Road Right on Jay Road Left at second light onto 63rd Right at first light onto Twin Lakes Right after .5 mile onto Tally Ho Trail 3rd house on the right. Park anywhere. Walter From nagler at bivio.biz Wed Sep 11 09:13:38 2002 From: nagler at bivio.biz (Rob Nagler) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] next meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15743.20370.297000.131288@gargle.gargle.HOWL> > Food (burgers and a few munchies) will be available. I'll bring a stack of vegi burgers for those so inclined. Rob From fibonaci at babylonia.flatirons.org Sat Sep 14 18:50:56 2002 From: fibonaci at babylonia.flatirons.org (Luke Palmer) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Extreme Programming In-Reply-To: <3D6E9DA9.1010806@techangle.com> Message-ID: Why don't I see any Extreme Programming links posted here today? Luke From efm at tummy.com Sat Sep 14 19:08:30 2002 From: efm at tummy.com (Evelyn Mitchell) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Extreme Programming In-Reply-To: References: <3D6E9DA9.1010806@techangle.com> Message-ID: <20020915000830.GA6399@tummy.com> * On 2002-09-14 23:53 Luke Palmer wrote: > Why don't I see any Extreme Programming links posted here today? http://www.xpdenver.org There was a good presentation on XP for solo programmers last month. The powerpoint was uploaded to the Yahoo Group for XPDenver: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/xpdenver/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/xpdenver/files/ scalingXpSmallProjects.ppt If you're interested in getting good feedback on the time it takes you to do tasks, and the most typical sorts of errors you make (based on Ward Humphrey's _A Discipline for Software Engineering_ Personal Software Process) Software Process Dashboard is a good tool: http://processdash.sourceforge.net/ In general, I've found that the open peer review of Open Source development is a good spur to more XP practices. -- Regards, tummy.com, ltd Evelyn Mitchell Linux Consulting since 1995 efm@tummy.com Senior System and Network Administrators http://www.tummy.com/ From nagler at bivio.biz Sun Sep 15 09:05:28 2002 From: nagler at bivio.biz (Rob Nagler) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Extreme Programming In-Reply-To: References: <3D6E9DA9.1010806@techangle.com> Message-ID: <15748.37800.967000.186473@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Luke Palmer writes: > Why don't I see any Extreme Programming links posted here today? Cuz, I forgot. Aside from Evelyn's links: http://www.extremeprogramming.org You can find my talk at: http://www.bivio.biz/hm/csci3308-xp-intro/intro I recommend going to at least one XP Denver. The talks are always good, and the attendees are mostly programmers. I liked the scaling-down XP talk, because it addresses the reality for most Perl programmers. Cheers, Rob From jason_van_slyke at hotmail.com Mon Sep 16 00:00:52 2002 From: jason_van_slyke at hotmail.com (Jason Van Slyke) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Extreme Programming Message-ID: Boulder Perl Mongers, Sorry I couldn't make it to the meeting on Friday. Just too, too much going on. We had long standing plans for a trip out of town for the weekend. Will try to catch up with you at the next get together. The comments on XP make me wish I could have been there (and for Walter's grilled burgers, of course ;). jvs >From: Rob Nagler >Reply-To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org >To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org >Subject: Re: [boulder.pm] Extreme Programming >Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 08:05:28 -0600 > >Luke Palmer writes: > > Why don't I see any Extreme Programming links posted here today? > >Cuz, I forgot. Aside from Evelyn's links: > >http://www.extremeprogramming.org > >You can find my talk at: > >http://www.bivio.biz/hm/csci3308-xp-intro/intro > >I recommend going to at least one XP Denver. The talks are always >good, and the attendees are mostly programmers. I liked the >scaling-down XP talk, because it addresses the reality for most Perl >programmers. > >Cheers, >Rob _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From skitt at colorado.edu Mon Sep 16 01:15:33 2002 From: skitt at colorado.edu (Bill Skitt) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] DSL in Boulder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1032156933.3d8577054d81b@webmail.colorado.edu> Hey all, I know this is off topic but I thought this was the best place to look for advise. I live at 30th and Aurora and have DSL through Qwest/MSN. I pay for 256/256 and realistically get 25kbps either way. Qwest screwed me out of my student discount and those speeds are terrible so I'm looking to cancel my service with them, and I was wondering if anyone has had experience with other providers in the area, and could offer me some advise or suggestions on my options? Thanks a bunch, -Bill From fibonaci at babylonia.flatirons.org Mon Sep 16 05:20:53 2002 From: fibonaci at babylonia.flatirons.org (Luke Palmer) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] DSL in Boulder In-Reply-To: <1032156933.3d8577054d81b@webmail.colorado.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Sep 2002, Bill Skitt wrote: > Hey all, > > I know this is off topic but I thought this was the best place to look for > advise. I live at 30th and Aurora and have DSL through Qwest/MSN. I pay for > 256/256 and realistically get 25kbps either way. Qwest screwed me out of my > student discount and those speeds are terrible so I'm looking to cancel my > service with them, and I was wondering if anyone has had experience with other > providers in the area, and could offer me some advise or suggestions on my > options? I use AT&T Cable. I like it: Stable connection (I can count on my speed being pretty much the same at any time), usually 150 k/s, or 350 k/s off Sun :). I pay $40/month. I've heard the satellite isn't bad either, but I don't have any experience with which to guide you. $30/month from what I've heard. Luke From donald.g.lewis at lmco.com Mon Sep 16 09:03:51 2002 From: donald.g.lewis at lmco.com (Lewis, Donald G) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] DSL in Boulder Message-ID: <6D5BFD6B8FB1D31192F90008C74B68170C729C13@emss02m03.ems.lmco.com> Mesa Networks is providing better than 500k to Longmont and North. They say they intend to expand to other areas as they have demand. It is a radio link rather than dsl. The website is http://www.mesanetworks.net. Probably the actual rates would depend upon how many are sending data at anyone point in time. Anyway call them up and let them know you are interested, like anything else it is driven by demand. - Don Lewis | -----Original Message----- | From: Bill Skitt [mailto:skitt@colorado.edu] | Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 12:16 AM | To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org | Subject: [boulder.pm] DSL in Boulder | | | Hey all, | | I know this is off topic but I thought this was the best | place to look for | advise. I live at 30th and Aurora and have DSL through | Qwest/MSN. I pay for | 256/256 and realistically get 25kbps either way. Qwest | screwed me out of my | student discount and those speeds are terrible so I'm | looking to cancel my | service with them, and I was wondering if anyone has had | experience with other | providers in the area, and could offer me some advise or | suggestions on my | options? | | | Thanks a bunch, | -Bill | From lee_melvin at mentorg.com Mon Sep 16 10:53:48 2002 From: lee_melvin at mentorg.com (Melvin, Lee) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] DSL in Boulder References: <1032156933.3d8577054d81b@webmail.colorado.edu> Message-ID: <3D85FE8C.4080906@mentor.com> I used to have Qwest/Qwest.net ISDN and endured unannounced 2-4 hour downtimes at least once a month. About a year ago I changed to Covad/Megapath IDSL and the service has been rock solid -- the entire time I've been a subscriber there's been one downtime, which was announced a week ahead of time and was 1/4 the time they reserved (1/2 hour downtime vs 2 hours announced). Qwest recently made full DSL available in my area, and AT&T has cable modem now as well. Both are faster and cheaper than IDSL ($80/month, ugh), but I'm reluctant to give up Megapath. I've had a couple friends suggest that Qwest DSL is OK, Qwest.net ISP is not so hot -- so if I went with FRII or Indra through Qwest I'd be OK. I'd love to hear opinions from anyone using Qwest DSL -- particularly latency, since I'm an unrecovering gamer in off hours. But to answer your question, I'd suggest looking into Megapath DSL in your area (http://www.megapath.net). Previously I used Indra's Net (http://www.indra.com) and their service and support is fantastic, but latency wasn't so great (only an issue if you're a gamer). I also have several friends who use (and/or work for) Front Range Internet Inc. (http://www.frii.com). - Lee Bill Skitt wrote: >Hey all, > >I know this is off topic but I thought this was the best place to look for >advise. I live at 30th and Aurora and have DSL through Qwest/MSN. I pay for >256/256 and realistically get 25kbps either way. Qwest screwed me out of my >student discount and those speeds are terrible so I'm looking to cancel my >service with them, and I was wondering if anyone has had experience with other >providers in the area, and could offer me some advise or suggestions on my >options? > > >Thanks a bunch, >-Bill > > From jason.wells at ihs.com Mon Sep 16 10:45:59 2002 From: jason.wells at ihs.com (jason.wells@ihs.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] DSL in Boulder Message-ID: owner-boulder-pm-list wrote: >I've heard the satellite isn't bad either, but I don't have any experience >with which to guide you. $30/month from what I've heard. FWIW, a guy I work with lives in Jamestown and uses a two-way satellite connection. He says the speeds are pretty good for general surfing, ftp, etc., but absolutely unbearable for anything like a telnet session. The satetillite latency makes it seem like an old 2400 modem. -Jason From KSmith at netLibrary.com Mon Sep 16 11:21:59 2002 From: KSmith at netLibrary.com (Keanan Smith) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] DSL in Boulder Message-ID: <8B499C5ACCA965439B3F6712E7ADABBD5BCFFD@mailman.netlibrary.com> As off-topic as it is, I know what you mean, Qwest's internet service is garbage, and their support is abysmal (Well, worse than that, I think they *try* to drive away buisness). I've switched to a cable modem from AT&T and it works well enough, haven't have any major problems (I've lost service for about an hour twice in a year and a half) I typically hit speeds determined by the other endpoint more often than I do mine (I appear to top out around 100-200kBPS, depending on the day, time, whatever randomness exists), and the service is resonably priced. I wouldn't say there's anything spectacular about it, but it works. :) Theoretically, Cable Internet should slowly degrade as more people start getting on the same circut as you are, however, since there's not really any way to tell, you'd just have to try it out and see what you get (It's fine in my house, but I live in southern boulder) -----Original Message----- From: Bill Skitt [mailto:skitt@colorado.edu] Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 12:16 AM To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: [boulder.pm] DSL in Boulder Hey all, I know this is off topic but I thought this was the best place to look for advise. I live at 30th and Aurora and have DSL through Qwest/MSN. I pay for 256/256 and realistically get 25kbps either way. Qwest screwed me out of my student discount and those speeds are terrible so I'm looking to cancel my service with them, and I was wondering if anyone has had experience with other providers in the area, and could offer me some advise or suggestions on my options? Thanks a bunch, -Bill From jason_van_slyke at hotmail.com Mon Sep 16 12:07:09 2002 From: jason_van_slyke at hotmail.com (Jason Van Slyke) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] DSL in Boulder Message-ID: Bill, Much as I dislike AT&T philosophically, their broadband service is very good here in Westminster. My home PC has consistently faster service on the AT&T bb than my connection at work in Longmont (I don't know specifically what my company uses, never needed to know). Have lost service a couple of times, but my Qwest land line into the house was down LOTS more than my cable. So we shut off the land line and we use Sprint PCS wireless for our phone. See ya Qwest! Oh, that was off subject too. Sorry. :) Hope you find good service. jvs >From: Bill Skitt >Reply-To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org >To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org >Subject: [boulder.pm] DSL in Boulder >Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 00:15:33 -0600 (MDT) > >Hey all, > >I know this is off topic but I thought this was the best place to look for >advise. I live at 30th and Aurora and have DSL through Qwest/MSN. I pay for >256/256 and realistically get 25kbps either way. Qwest screwed me out of my >student discount and those speeds are terrible so I'm looking to cancel my >service with them, and I was wondering if anyone has had experience with >other >providers in the area, and could offer me some advise or suggestions on my >options? > > >Thanks a bunch, >-Bill _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From jason.wells at ihs.com Mon Sep 16 12:51:53 2002 From: jason.wells at ihs.com (jason.wells@ihs.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] DSL in Boulder Message-ID: owner-boulder-pm-list wrote: >I'd love to hear opinions from anyone using Qwest DSL -- particularly latency, since I'm >an unrecovering gamer in off hours. I use Qwest DSL (with Dimensional as my ISP) all day every day and I've never had any problems with the DSL line itself. The few hiccups have been Dimensional's problems and were resolved fairly quickly. I've actually had a pretty good experience with Qwest, but, like I said, I've never had a problem that they needed to be involved with. This is my third year with them, so the fact that I've never had a problem should be a good sign. >From what I've seen, most people encounter problems right at the beginning and instantly get off in the weeds of Qwest support. If you can make it through that, you'll probably be fine. As far as latency, this has also never been a problem as long as you don't expect to use the full 256 connection. I am a really heavy VPN user (telnet, X-Windows, pcAnywhere, etc) and the connection has always been reasonably quick (usually 40-60 kbps). I used to play StarCraft with no latency problems too, but I haven't played in a year or two. -Jason From rise at knavery.net Tue Sep 17 21:37:50 2002 From: rise at knavery.net (rise) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Yet Another PM Activity Message-ID: Walter and I were talking about playing disc golf this afternoon (Wednesday) at the S. Boulder course and thought we'd throw out an open invitation to the list. No experience required, discs will be provided. We tend to talk about Perl pretty extensively (between cursing the vagaries of wind and trees that leap in front of discs), programming philosophy only if Rob shows up. -- Jonathan Conway rise@knavery.net From fibonaci at babylonia.flatirons.org Tue Sep 17 21:47:37 2002 From: fibonaci at babylonia.flatirons.org (Luke Palmer) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Yet Another PM Activity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Sep 2002, rise wrote: > Walter and I were talking about playing disc golf this afternoon > (Wednesday) at the S. Boulder course and thought we'd throw out an open > invitation to the list. No experience required, discs will be provided. > We tend to talk about Perl pretty extensively (between cursing the > vagaries of wind and trees that leap in front of discs), programming > philosophy only if Rob shows up. Ummm.. what time? Luke From rise at knavery.net Wed Sep 18 00:49:50 2002 From: rise at knavery.net (rise) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Yet Another PM Activity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Sep 2002, Luke Palmer wrote: > Ummm.. what time? Oh yeah: after 3, suggestions welcome. -- Jonathan Conway rise@knavery.net Eff the ineffable, scru the inscrutable. - Unknown From davep at kinaole.org Wed Sep 18 01:36:20 2002 From: davep at kinaole.org (Dave Price) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Yet Another PM Activity In-Reply-To: ; from fibonaci@babylonia.flatirons.org on Tue, Sep 17, 2002 at 08:47:37PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20020918003620.C14190@kinaole.org> On Tue, Sep 17, 2002 at 08:47:37PM -0600, Luke Palmer wrote: > On Tue, 17 Sep 2002, rise wrote: > > > Walter and I were talking about playing disc golf this afternoon > > (Wednesday) at the S. Boulder course and thought we'd throw out an open > > invitation to the list. No experience required, discs will be provided. > > We tend to talk about Perl pretty extensively (between cursing the > > vagaries of wind and trees that leap in front of discs), programming > > philosophy only if Rob shows up. > > > Ummm.. what time? > > Luke > Sounds great - and where is the South Boulder Course - (I am ferom Denver, and have not played disc golf since the days of playing on the UH Manoa campus aloha, dave From rise at knavery.net Wed Sep 18 10:38:41 2002 From: rise at knavery.net (rise) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:46 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Yet Another PM Activity In-Reply-To: <20020918003620.C14190@kinaole.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, Dave Price wrote: > Sounds great - and where is the South Boulder Course - (I am ferom > Denver, and have not played disc golf since the days of playing on the > UH Manoa campus 1360 Gillaspie Boulder, CO 80305 http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?map.x=378&map.y=90&mapdata=hP0urGiog%252bdTwCC2BaMNag85VS5bTm4%252fTALb%252bZ7aFmDFtfC5S2NvLMJtyAMHLQAZU7F%252b%252fG8CDiwVqff815lRGTUih0AifuTgwFaSyrnG9%252fvQL3jMLfRq%252fsMquPnukAubfYEFL%252b1cu5vEPszFFlIJzxIoJuoKrQue0hKPAWgtZ9Q5LHT0OE6wTQU407wV%252bFl58TB2ybw6NQmCydhu0MGDz7vui1O8dtwAYzpHbx1exB%252fYrE96xyuu3JCnNU4a5X4slNrNp6kLTUJMAmNN318V0QVWZyfkEzgSkZF1dVpcIw9Eoilm9mKW7GbxbDtj0bmACwEfjgmwxMZUMAbM85kv7YUn7AfpKzTtaC2BTPpSILC99voZ3NGfMg%253d%253d&click=center Easiest directions from Denver are: 36 to S. Boulder Rd/Table Mesa exit (first exit for Boulder) Left on Table Mesa (West) to Gillaspie (2nd left after Broadway, first goes into the King Soopers parking lot) Left on Gillaspie Follow Gillaspie until you see soccer fields & volleyball courts on you left. The parking lot is on the left, we usually meet roughly in front of the Rec Center, the course is around the corner to the right as your facing the center. -- Jonathan Conway rise@knavery.net Eff the ineffable, scru the inscrutable. - Unknown From walter at frii.com Wed Sep 18 12:05:04 2002 From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:47 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Yet Another PM Activity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Sep 2002, rise wrote: > On Tue, 17 Sep 2002, Luke Palmer wrote: > > > Ummm.. what time? > > Oh yeah: after 3, suggestions welcome. 3:30 or later work for me today. Anyone else? Walter From chip at rmpg.org Wed Sep 18 12:49:54 2002 From: chip at rmpg.org (Chip Atkinson) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:47 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Quickie mod-perl question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings, I'm starting work on an extranet for work and wanted to know about mod-perl. I can't use php because I can't get it to work with Oracle so I'm thinking that perhaps mod-perl will work, assuming I can get it to work with the perl DBI stuff. So, my question is, does mod-perl work in a fashion that is fairly similar to php? Additional information such as session tracking, etc. would be great too, but I'm just trying to decide if I'm going down the right path. Thanks! Chip From nagler at bivio.biz Wed Sep 18 13:06:30 2002 From: nagler at bivio.biz (Rob Nagler) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:47 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Quickie mod-perl question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15752.49318.798000.817341@gargle.gargle.HOWL> > I'm starting work on an extranet for work and wanted to know about > mod-perl. I can't use php because I can't get it to work with Oracle so > I'm thinking that perhaps mod-perl will work, assuming I can get it to > work with the perl DBI stuff. We use mod_perl with both Oracle and Postgres. > So, my question is, does mod-perl work in a fashion that is fairly similar > to php? No. There are modules you can use for templating, however. The choice is daunting: http://perl.apache.org/products/app-server.html And some kits may not be on this list. This is very good article on building applications in mod_perl: http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2001/10/17/etoys.html > Additional information such as session tracking, etc. would be great too, > but I'm just trying to decide if I'm going down the right path. My experience tells me that sessions are more trouble than they are worth. We run all our servers sessionless. You do need to track authentication information in a cookie, however. You can see an example (including code) of a mod_perl application at: http://petshop.bivio.biz If you are building something reasonably complex or you plan on building lots of sites with a small number of functions, I think you'll be better off using mod_perl. My experience with PHP is very limited (helping someone debug), but I find it to be unnecessarily convoluted, e.g. in Perl, there's one "sort" function and in PHP there are 6(?) (ksort, uasort, etc.). The simplicity of Perl for programmers is what makes Perl a good choice imiho. Rob From walter at frii.com Wed Sep 18 15:23:10 2002 From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:47 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Yet Another PM Activity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, Walter Pienciak wrote: > > > Ummm.. what time? > > > > Oh yeah: after 3, suggestions welcome. > > 3:30 or later work for me today. Anyone else? > > Walter Nobody? Jon, if it's just the two of us, I'd as soon put it off to another day: my afternoon is tight, and I'd enjoy it more if the clock wasn't ticking on me. Walter From rise at knavery.net Wed Sep 18 15:27:35 2002 From: rise at knavery.net (rise) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:47 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Yet Another PM Activity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, Walter Pienciak wrote: > Nobody? Jon, if it's just the two of us, I'd as soon put it off > to another day: my afternoon is tight, and I'd enjoy it more if > the clock wasn't ticking on me. Well, it's started raining down here so that might be a good idea. Luke, Dave, how about Friday at 4:30? I'll swing by at 3:00 today in case anyone didn't get this, but I'm not clear it's going to be playable weather. -- Jonathan Conway rise@knavery.net Eff the ineffable, scru the inscrutable. - Unknown From chip at rmpg.org Wed Sep 18 16:30:04 2002 From: chip at rmpg.org (Chip Atkinson) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:47 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] A little perl thing I just discovered... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi everyone. Here's something that may be obvious to some: #!/usr/bin/perl use strict; while () { print "$_\n"; } This prints out all the files that match /lib/lib*. Wow. I thought I had to do an opendir and a readdir. Chip From rise at knavery.net Fri Sep 20 01:16:59 2002 From: rise at knavery.net (rise) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:47 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Yet Another PM Activity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, rise wrote: > 1360 Gillaspie > Boulder, CO 80305 > > http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?map.x=378&map.y=90&mapdata=hP0urGiog%252bdTwCC2BaMNag85VS5bTm4%252fTALb%252bZ7aFmDFtfC5S2NvLMJtyAMHLQAZU7F%252b%252fG8CDiwVqff815lRGTUih0AifuTgwFaSyrnG9%252fvQL3jMLfRq%252fsMquPnukAubfYEFL%252b1cu5vEPszFFlIJzxIoJuoKrQue0hKPAWgtZ9Q5LHT0OE6wTQU407wV%252bFl58TB2ybw6NQmCydhu0MGDz7vui1O8dtwAYzpHbx1exB%252fYrE96xyuu3JCnNU4a5X4slNrNp6kLTUJMAmNN318V0QVWZyfkEzgSkZF1dVpcIw9Eoilm9mKW7GbxbDtj0bmACwEfjgmwxMZUMAbM85kv7YUn7AfpKzTtaC2BTPpSILC99voZ3NGfMg%253d%253d&click=center > > Easiest directions from Denver are: > > 36 to S. Boulder Rd/Table Mesa exit (first exit for Boulder) > > Left on Table Mesa (West) to Gillaspie (2nd left after Broadway, first > goes into the King Soopers parking lot) > > Left on Gillaspie > > Follow Gillaspie until you see soccer fields & volleyball courts on you > left. The parking lot is on the left, we usually meet roughly in front of > the Rec Center, the course is around the corner to the right as your > facing the center. The forecast shows no rain so I'll be at the course by 4:30 tomorrow with discs, drop-ins are welcome. If anyone wants to check in with me on conditions I'll be at Caffe Sole and thus online until 4:10 or so. In case of rain we can discuss templating/component systems - that's always good for a few hours of rambling... -- Jonathan Conway rise@knavery.net Eff the ineffable, scru the inscrutable. - Unknown From walter at frii.com Fri Sep 20 11:05:05 2002 From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:47 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Yet Another PM Activity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, rise wrote: > The forecast shows no rain so I'll be at the course by 4:30 tomorrow with > discs, drop-ins are welcome. If anyone wants to check in with me on > conditions I'll be at Caffe Sole and thus online until 4:10 or so. In > case of rain we can discuss templating/component systems - that's always > good for a few hours of rambling... Yeah! You watch the distance on my throws today -- I'll be visualizing a certain manager's head about 5 feet in front of me . . . Walter From walter at frii.com Fri Sep 20 11:09:30 2002 From: walter at frii.com (Walter Pienciak) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:47 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] Yet Another PM Activity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Walter Pienciak wrote: > On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, rise wrote: > > > The forecast shows no rain so I'll be at the course by 4:30 tomorrow with > > discs, drop-ins are welcome. If anyone wants to check in with me on > > conditions I'll be at Caffe Sole and thus online until 4:10 or so. In > > case of rain we can discuss templating/component systems - that's always > > good for a few hours of rambling... > > Yeah! You watch the distance on my throws today -- I'll be visualizing > a certain manager's head about 5 feet in front of me . . . > > Walter Clarification: When Jon sent his e-mail, the time was 00:16:59 MDT. So his reference to "tomorrow" was a reference to "Friday". Walter From myke at komar.org Fri Sep 27 14:32:16 2002 From: myke at komar.org (Myke Komarnitsky) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:47 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] crypt function In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020927133133.0290c8a0@boulder.aescon.com> does anyone know what the set of output characters will be for the crypt function? specifically, does it include ' or " ? Thanks, Myke Michael Komarnitsky Komar Consulting Group 303.818.3718 http://www.komar.biz http://climbingboulder.com http://myke.komar.org - From jason_van_slyke at hotmail.com Sat Sep 28 01:15:39 2002 From: jason_van_slyke at hotmail.com (Jason Van Slyke) Date: Wed Aug 4 23:58:47 2004 Subject: [boulder.pm] crypt function Message-ID: Myke, Did a few minutes of snooping before hanging up for the night. Ran across a reply on comp.lang.perl.misc by Mark-Jason Dominus. The reference at the bottom might be useful for your question: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=52mmp0%2417e%40picasso.op.net&rnum=2 Hope that is of some help or at least seed for fruitful research. Jason >From: Myke Komarnitsky >Reply-To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org >To: boulder-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org >Subject: [boulder.pm] crypt function >Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:32:16 -0600 > >does anyone know what the set of output characters will be for the crypt >function? specifically, does it include ' or " ? > >Thanks, >Myke > >Michael Komarnitsky Komar Consulting Group >303.818.3718 http://www.komar.biz >http://climbingboulder.com >http://myke.komar.org >- _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx